Curse

SnipiousMax · Aug 14, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Punishing Shot has the power to interrupt, provided it is well timed, one skill every ~8 seconds (the need to time implies it will be used less frequently then once every 8 seconds). Broad Head Arrow sets a spellcasting target up to be interrupted almost continuously for 20 seconds (shutdown). Now, explain to me how Punishing Shot would be better at achieving that.

It's all about precision.

Sure, on paper, BHA will deliever an almost constant interrupt... But that's not considering very common things occuring:

One. As it was stated, in PvE it is very common to kill a baddie before the condtion runs out.

Two. In PvP, a team that does not bring condition removal, is running subpar to begin with. Using 25 energy (or even the expertise reduced equivalent) to apply a condition, that is more than likely going to be removed within a few seconds, is not an effective way of spending energy. You could say that once they were dazed (a monk for example) that they would be unable to get a spell off. But its really easy to get of 1/4 sec casts in between attacks... Timing that will not be a problem at all. Boon Prots run CoP in most cases, and that allows them to strip condtions without any problem at all.

BHA would be great in a coordinated spike in PvP, where you could cover the condition, and you had two or three people attacking at once to apply physical damage. But in the places where it would be useful... unfortunately, there are better ways of shutting someone down, and there are better elites that are more use to a ranger (crip shot springs to mind).

In PvE it is very handy against bosses that have reduced casting time, and nasty spells to cast.... But unfortunately, those bosses only make up a fraction of the time you'll spend playing.

Evilsod · Aug 14, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I have sparsely used BHA in PvE. In general exploration its useless. In certain trips or missions it can ruin the enemies plans 10 fold.
Boreas Seabed it can be used to instantly keep Argo quiet.
Elite caps involving Ele/Rit bosses and the occasional Monk.
I was lagging to much to use Concussion Shot <---- Happening alot recently

Theres no need for BHA in most places. Against Dredge its a complete waste. Against Wardens they can either be interrupted easily or will be dead before the arrow even lands. Carp patrols... Siphons are easily interupted anyway. Mantis have a condition removal so without Apply its useless. Saltspray, by the time the arrow has hit they'll have used RtL and have already used there combo up.

Arturo02 · Aug 14, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Yes, I erred, I meant 15 second recharge. But I didn't imply what you said I did. Note I put in the words "for the most part".

Bta can be better, provided the condition isn't removed. But if it is the skill becomes a crappy elite.

Further, if the dazed condition interrupts spell casting for the entire recharge time, and interrupts' main purpose is on spells, then why even have the other two interrupts in there? If BTA is that great then it should be your only interrupt.

Because BTA is not a skill you can trust that well and it's not about spells every time. There are many skills you would want to block.

The good thing is the AI in pve isn't that smart and you probably can get away with using either one, ps or bta.

Still, for myself, I would rather have savage/distract/punish then s/d/bta.

Huntmaster · Aug 14, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic RD

I prefer to have unconditional Dazed, rather than conditional dazed

QQ, learn2interrupt and stop wasting your elite.

Amy Awien · Aug 14, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Aren't you the tuff guy, Huntmaster. If you have something usefull to say, do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Yes, I erred, I meant 15 second recharge. But I didn't imply what you said I did. Note I put in the words "for the most part".

Yeah, but, there was no "most part", two of the three skills mentioned were skill/action interrupters :P

Quote:

Bta can be better, provided the condition isn't removed. But if it is the skill becomes a crappy elite.

But that one goes for every elite. When critters spread out, Barrage becomes a crappy elite. Punishing Shot isn't really usefull by itself

Quote:

Further, if the dazed condition interrupts spell casting for the entire recharge time, and interrupts' main purpose is on spells, then why even have the other two interrupts in there? If BTA is that great then it should be your only interrupt.

To have the chance to interrupt those non-spell skills anyway, as you said yourself (unquoted), it is not about spells everytime. In some builds even just taking Distracting Shot is worthwhile.

Essentially, by taking BHA and not PS you trade in a generic skill-interrupter for a more efficient spellinterrupter.

Quote:

Still, for myself, I would rather have savage/distract/punish then s/d/bta.

To each his own, that is the good part, you can create your own build and have fun with it.

Huntmaster · Aug 14, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Aren't you the tuff guy, Huntmaster. If you have something usefull to say, do so.

Well, thank you.. i always thought i was more of a 'tough' guy but either way works, i guess..

As for something useful to say? Lets see what i've brought up, shall we.

BHA is a waste. If you have it on your bar, you're likely going to be trying to interrupt, otherwise you're pretty much wasting your elite either way. With this said, if you ARE interrupting, you're going to be looking to do just that, and you're probably good at it. So, why waste your elite on a skill that you have to fire 4 seconds early just to get it to hit, even though it will likely be cleared off by a monk, and when it does hit, the caster is going to know whats going on.. So if you're already trying to interrupt, why not save your elite, take Conc and just interrupt like a normal person.

Hell, if you're interrupting, why bother with daze either way! It's a pretty conditional effect that will be cleaned up asap if the caster is important enough for the build.

In short; conc shot > BHA, straight interrupts > daze.

(If you can give me a situation where daze is totally NEEDED, please go ahead and do so, but again, it's still situational and learning how to time straight interrupts will always be better.)

(Oh, and i guess i've really been talking about PvP, but in PvE it doesn't really matter. Mobs are too stupid and all you really need is Savage.)

Oh and Amy, please don't jump up and down with the whole "ZOMG OBVIOUSLY YOU WASTED YOUR TIME HE WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT PVE" because they are completely relevant. I guess if thats your mindset then yes, BHA is the perfect elite for PvE because you can stand around and be lazy.

jedi mad hatter · Aug 14, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntmaster

BHA is a waste. If you have it on your bar, you're likely going to be trying to interrupt, otherwise you're pretty much wasting your elite either way.

I don't agree with this statement. The whole point of Daze is allowing you to interrupts a foe *without* the need for skills specifically designed to interrupt, since they are already easily interruptable. If you were building for interrupts, you would take at least 2 interrupt-specific skills. With Broadhead, you just fire-and-forget, increase the pressure with your other attack skills, and interrupt as a bonus side-effect.

Broadhead Arrow also allows you to hit one target with Daze, and concentrate on another target with your main interrupts, allowing you to keep one target shutdown, or have their casting speed halved for the duration of the battle.

There are better elites and other skills out there that would serve better than Broadhead Arrow, but when it comes to hitting someone with Daze, this is probably the best skill around for it. It doesn't look like it's been designed to compliment an interrupt build (that's Punishing Shot's role), but rather, it is an easy way to add interrupts to a build that is setup for something else entirely.

Alperuzi · Aug 14, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Ok, BHA is VERY useful in the mission Abbadon's Mouth where you face that evil monk who spams orison. If you are henching the mission, you'll definately want that skill on you (or conc shot and a bit of luck). This also applies to many other monk or ele bosses in the game, but otherwise as said it has very little use.

SnipiousMax · Aug 14, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

^ My problem with BHA is that it is NOT an interrupt per say. It's aimed at shutting down an opponent, rather than disrupting what they are doing. And as a shut down skill, it's pretty poor. To say that it is an interrupt is to say that the lottery is a secure investment.

While it does deliever an unconditional daze, it's not very likely to hit your foe unless he's casting a spell with a long cast time (fire toting Eles!) or you're sitting right on top of him. As hard as it is to inflict the daze, it's that much more unlikely that they'll let the target STAY dazed. Punishing Shot isn't going to shut an opponent down by itself either, as Amy mentioned, so there's not much point in comparing the two because their purpose is different. As far as shutting an opponent down completely, I think Practiced Stance + Choking Gas is a better choice. That is a constant interrupt (spells only granted) and it doesn't require a condition to do it. BHA would be a great skill.... if it was like cripple shot. It'd be a viable option then.

Huntmaster · Aug 14, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedi mad hatter

I don't agree with this statement.

Agree with it or not, probably 80% of rangers usually have some sort of interrupt on their bar with any build, and as Max has stated, there are too many cons to this skills pros.

Pros: Daze, unconditional.
Cons: Takes ages to hit, low chance to hit, daze is a CONDITION and everyone has condition removal these days, only useful against casters.

Sure, use it against Willa and maybe Argo, but put it to good use because there isn't much other PvE need for this skill besides those two situations.

HalPlantagenet · Aug 14, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I want to thank the posters to this thread for reminding me that there are numerous approaches to interuption, particularly Toxic for starting it and Amy for her reasoned replies. And thanks Alperuzzi for providing a clear, specific example in PVE where BHA is perfect.

From my perspective it's all about circumstance and precision. In my experience there are few skills, if any, that are always appropriate or useless. It depends on the situation. On a mission, such as a Abaddon's Mouth which, you might find yourself repeating once or twice to be successful, fore knowledge of what you're facing from previous less successful attempts allows you to optimize.

However, there are many situations in which you face unknown or heterogeneous collections of enemies. Is there a good, versatile build including BHA for that circumstance?

For what it's worth, in such situations in PVE, I generally run with Punishing, Savage and high expertise and find I can interupt almost everything I need to interupt while boosting damge with Kindle. I don't take choking because I find interupting warriors to be useful, particularly if I have a team without a tank. Again, it's about circumstance.

Whatever strategy you use, you must admit that there is nothing quite like that little surge of adrenalin when you interupt a major spell or save a team mate with a strategically applied interupt. Forgive the allusion, rangers lead the way.

Amy Awien · Aug 14, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalPlantagenet

... you must admit that there is nothing quite like that little surge of adrenalin when you interupt a major spell ...

I never get tired of seeing their skillprogress-thingies halt and turn purple

SnipiousMax · Aug 14, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalPlantagenet

However, there are many situations in which you face unknown or heterogeneous collections of enemies. Is there a good, versatile build including BHA for that circumstance?

I think this sums it up perfectly.

Versitility, precision, and circumstance. Looking at it from the perspective of which elites will give you the most versitility, I don't think BHA will ever find much use beyond a few bosses.

Toxic RD · Aug 14, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Thanks for all the replies, this is becomming a very useful thread, don;t stop posting!

Age · Aug 14, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I prefer Punishing shot with distract and savage shot and I would use concussion shot alog with punishing.I did cap BHA.

Solvi · Aug 16, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I will cap BHA eventually but more for the sake of getting a title than for the skill itself. I do think that i might bring it along for those special circumstances but i think i will mainly stick with PS+CG build or PUN,SAV,DIS build.

Mera Regila · Aug 17, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I have sparsely used BHA in PvE. In general exploration its useless. In certain trips or missions it can ruin the enemies plans 10 fold.
Boreas Seabed it can be used to instantly keep Argo quiet.
Elite caps involving Ele/Rit bosses and the occasional Monk.

The simple way to make BHA hit is to get close to the enemy you're attacking, with an evasive stance on, and use broad head arrow. It will almost garunteingly hit, and your target will be dazed, arguably the most devastating condition ingame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Theres no need for BHA in most places. Against Dredge its a complete waste.

Care to elaborate a bit here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Against Wardens they can either be interrupted easily or will be dead before the arrow even lands. Carp patrols... Siphons are easily interupted anyway. Mantis have a condition removal so without Apply its useless. Saltspray, by the time the arrow has hit they'll have used RtL and have already used there combo up.

Wardens: This is why you bring other interrupts.
Carp: See above assessment.
Mantids: This is why you use broad head arrow on the Mantids with condition removal, usually there is only one Mantis Mender in a group, you keep him dazed he can't condition remove.
Saltspray Dragons: Some bows have a longer range than agro radius for these monsters, meaning you can use broadhead arrow as the first arrow that hits, meaning you can interrupt ride the lightning, and its combo will be worthless.

You have merely named a very very small portion of all the creatures in Tyria and Cantha, bosses in Cantha have shortened cast time, meaning Dazed cancels that ability out on caster bosses (which are the majority of bosses in cantha). This is a very helpful asset to have on your team, try doing Unwaking Waters without Dazed to interrupt Kunnavang, sure you could use concussion shot, however this isnt garunteed, and broad head arrow is by all means a better skill.

My assessment of the Broad Head Arrow elite skill overall: Moderate-High for interrupt rangers.

Solvi · Aug 17, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I did cap BHA today. I have to say I HATE the slow moving arrow aspect of it.....it was fun to play around with....the main points of use are like Mera states...use it in close cobat with a defensive stance or make sure your target is stationary.....the daze regardless of iteruption or not is nice but just not nice enough to be a staple skill.

Mera Regila · Aug 17, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solvi

I did cap BHA today. I have to say I HATE the slow moving arrow aspect of it.....it was fun to play around with....the main points of use are like Mera states...use it in close cobat with a defensive stance or make sure your target is stationary.....the daze regardless of iteruption or not is nice but just not nice enough to be a staple skill.

This much is true, some prefer Punishing Shot so they don't have to put many points in Expertise. Here's my Broad Head Arrow interrupt build, i hope it helps you:

Attributes:
Marksmanship: 16
Expertise: 11
Wilderness Survival: 9

Skills:
Broad Head Arrow
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Read The Wind
Troll Uguent
Whirling Defense
Any other evasion or blocking stance in the expertise section
Res or Capture Signet

Silk Weaver · Aug 17, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Daze is great for PvE. Although Daze doesn't last 15 seconds, at least it lasts more than 5 seconds (PvP).

I don't use punishing shot simply because savage shots owns it. This is what I do.

Concussion: For spells.
Distracting: Healsigs, spamming skills.
Savage: I spam it.

Concussion owns BHA because it's not an elite, has less recharge, and does not move as slow. Why do I use Broad Head Arrow though?

Orison Spam! That's really it. It's not easy to interrupt 1 second cast spells with a flatbow (I... uh... use read the wind and FW for PvE). With unconditional daze, you can interrupt without using skills. Any interrupter worth their salt is capable of keeping tabs (pun, lol) on several enemies at the same time. Continuously attack the dazed target, while using tab to interrupt other skills. Done. When concussion shot can be used, I almost always use it. However, unless you have godly future-reading/spamming skills like me, it's impossible to daze some mobs in some zones. So, yes, I do bring broad head arrow sometimes, and I think it's good for those places.

PS: I concussion shot-ted a RoF-er once in RA... life was good.
PPS: Expertise is always maxed for me, so, bleh.